Hi first post here! I have a 78 manual with a few issues I’m tracing down.
There’s an intermittent start problem. Everything does what it’s supposed to do until you click over to start and nothing happens. Takes a few turns of the key and then it cranks. Not always and some times the problem seems to go away for a period of time.
Does this seem like an ignition switch problem?
Starting gremlins
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MrGreenJeans
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dr bob
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Welcome to Carpokes!
It might be the ignition switch, but fortunately there's a pretty simple way to test for that possibility.
The starter is circuit 50 in DIN cars like ours, and uses yellow insulated wire. Helpful when you are tracing things.
The ignition switch directs current flow to the starter via the Central Electrics panel, where jumper in the Starter relay socket bridges the 30 and 87 contacts. In the 928, a Starter Blocking Relay provides for the interlock for neutral safety, allowing cranking only when in Park or Neutral. Your manual transmission seems to be missing "park" position, so no need for that interlock function. The circuit continues from the CE panel to the 14-pin socket front right in the engine bay, by the jump post. From that connector the KS-2 'front of engine' harness carries the circuit to the starter solenoid.
For some reason the factory workshop manuals don't list the location of the starter interlock relay until MY80, but the locations are likely the same at position XIV in the central electrics panel. Your owner's manual may show it, or there may still be the original central electrics panel components layout on the cover. It should be pretty easy to find though, as IIRC it's the only relay socket with a copper jumper installed. The jumper itself should show battery voltage when the key is in the 'start' position III, referenced to chassis ground. This an unfused circuit, so use care when connecting a meter or test light and turning the key to test.
The jumper itself is a beryllium copper strap, and subject to age- and environment related corrosion with time. the contacts are 'self wiping', and often withdrawing and reinserting the jumper is enough to clean any surface corrosion from the contact surfaces. Use care no to bend or twist the jumper. If the old one is rotted beyond repair, you can fabricate a wire jumper with a short section of 12ga wire and a couple crimp-on male spade lugs. Yellow wire works the best...
If you find that the jumper shows battery voltage but the starter isn't cranking reliably, the fault is downstream of the CE panel. If you don't see battery voltage there reliably, the problem is usually upstream at the ignition switch or its socket connector.
The 14-pin connector in the engine bay is the next downstream test point. Pin 14 carries the circuit there. You can carefully remove the cover on the connector to expose the back of the pins for testing. Then the test light or meter again, referencing chassis ground, should show battery voltage when the switch is in the 'start' position. If it did at the CE jumper but doesn't here, there's a fault in the harness between the relay socket connection in the CE panel and the 14-pin connector. Carefully put the connector cover back on, then pull the connector off to expose the bottom half of that connector. Test again there, and if you see battery voltage with key in 'start', carefully clean both the brass tube points in the bottom and the pins in the top half of the connector. I use a brass detailer's 'toothbrush'. There are some contact cleaners that might help some. Clean, reassemble, and test again at the top half with the cover removed again. Background: There's a plastic cover that fits over the jump post terminal and that connector, plus some vinyl bulb molding, and together they work to keep rain and car wash water out of the connections. Early cars may not have been fitted with the covers, or they often seem to get lost when that connector is apart for something like a timing belt service.
Once you've established reliable voltage at that connector for start, the next test point is at the starter solenoid. The yellow wire in the harness connects to a terminal marked 50 on the starter solenoid. Very carefully remove and clean that connection, and test there for reliable battery voltage when key is in start position. There's a good case for lifting the ground cable at the battery and cleaning all the connections on that solenoid. If you see battery voltage there at terminal 50 with key in start position, but the starter does not engage, the problem is almost undoubtedly the starter itself.
Related: Current for cranking and running the car depends on good primary wiring connections, including both battery cables and the engine ground to the chassis. The battery grounds via a braided copper strap from the negative post to the rear apron, hidden by the tool panel. The original fitment there is a wing bolt or nut for the end of the cable at the rear apron, and the nut or bolt must be tight. The copper ground strap itself is a known problem with internal corrosion. I chased some related charging problems for a while before finally solving the symptoms with a new ground strap.
The engine to chassis ground is a round exposed copper braid cable from the block to the chassis under the exhaust. It's exposed to everything you've ever driven through including water, mud, salt from winter deicing, etc. Replacement is easy, and it's easier to just do that and the battery ground strap to remove all doubt.
Look hard at the battery and make sure both posts and terminal clamps are clean, shiny, and snug for a good connection. I coat all those with some Vaseline after they are proven good, to protect from stray acid fumes in the closed battery well. The battery itself has a vent port for fumes, and I route that outside the battery box to help with some corrosion issues in the cables and also in the box itself. Early cars have the battery box bolted to the transaxle to help with a resonant vibration, so inspect carefully to make sure that corrosion hasn't compromised the integrity of that box or its mountings.
If you do decide to replace the ignition switch, be sure to buy from a reputable vendor. The switch itself is the same one fitted to period 911 cars, making the market big enough to encourage cheap knock-off switches. I'll confess that I ended up with a new switch while chasing issues in my car, but the problem was not the switch. Mine is ten years newer than yours and the original switch is still working perfectly. The replacement switch is in a bin of good spares should I ever need it.
Hope this helps! Please share back what you find, and contribute to the knowledge base for future readers.
It might be the ignition switch, but fortunately there's a pretty simple way to test for that possibility.
The starter is circuit 50 in DIN cars like ours, and uses yellow insulated wire. Helpful when you are tracing things.
The ignition switch directs current flow to the starter via the Central Electrics panel, where jumper in the Starter relay socket bridges the 30 and 87 contacts. In the 928, a Starter Blocking Relay provides for the interlock for neutral safety, allowing cranking only when in Park or Neutral. Your manual transmission seems to be missing "park" position, so no need for that interlock function. The circuit continues from the CE panel to the 14-pin socket front right in the engine bay, by the jump post. From that connector the KS-2 'front of engine' harness carries the circuit to the starter solenoid.
For some reason the factory workshop manuals don't list the location of the starter interlock relay until MY80, but the locations are likely the same at position XIV in the central electrics panel. Your owner's manual may show it, or there may still be the original central electrics panel components layout on the cover. It should be pretty easy to find though, as IIRC it's the only relay socket with a copper jumper installed. The jumper itself should show battery voltage when the key is in the 'start' position III, referenced to chassis ground. This an unfused circuit, so use care when connecting a meter or test light and turning the key to test.
The jumper itself is a beryllium copper strap, and subject to age- and environment related corrosion with time. the contacts are 'self wiping', and often withdrawing and reinserting the jumper is enough to clean any surface corrosion from the contact surfaces. Use care no to bend or twist the jumper. If the old one is rotted beyond repair, you can fabricate a wire jumper with a short section of 12ga wire and a couple crimp-on male spade lugs. Yellow wire works the best...
If you find that the jumper shows battery voltage but the starter isn't cranking reliably, the fault is downstream of the CE panel. If you don't see battery voltage there reliably, the problem is usually upstream at the ignition switch or its socket connector.
The 14-pin connector in the engine bay is the next downstream test point. Pin 14 carries the circuit there. You can carefully remove the cover on the connector to expose the back of the pins for testing. Then the test light or meter again, referencing chassis ground, should show battery voltage when the switch is in the 'start' position. If it did at the CE jumper but doesn't here, there's a fault in the harness between the relay socket connection in the CE panel and the 14-pin connector. Carefully put the connector cover back on, then pull the connector off to expose the bottom half of that connector. Test again there, and if you see battery voltage with key in 'start', carefully clean both the brass tube points in the bottom and the pins in the top half of the connector. I use a brass detailer's 'toothbrush'. There are some contact cleaners that might help some. Clean, reassemble, and test again at the top half with the cover removed again. Background: There's a plastic cover that fits over the jump post terminal and that connector, plus some vinyl bulb molding, and together they work to keep rain and car wash water out of the connections. Early cars may not have been fitted with the covers, or they often seem to get lost when that connector is apart for something like a timing belt service.
Once you've established reliable voltage at that connector for start, the next test point is at the starter solenoid. The yellow wire in the harness connects to a terminal marked 50 on the starter solenoid. Very carefully remove and clean that connection, and test there for reliable battery voltage when key is in start position. There's a good case for lifting the ground cable at the battery and cleaning all the connections on that solenoid. If you see battery voltage there at terminal 50 with key in start position, but the starter does not engage, the problem is almost undoubtedly the starter itself.
Related: Current for cranking and running the car depends on good primary wiring connections, including both battery cables and the engine ground to the chassis. The battery grounds via a braided copper strap from the negative post to the rear apron, hidden by the tool panel. The original fitment there is a wing bolt or nut for the end of the cable at the rear apron, and the nut or bolt must be tight. The copper ground strap itself is a known problem with internal corrosion. I chased some related charging problems for a while before finally solving the symptoms with a new ground strap.
The engine to chassis ground is a round exposed copper braid cable from the block to the chassis under the exhaust. It's exposed to everything you've ever driven through including water, mud, salt from winter deicing, etc. Replacement is easy, and it's easier to just do that and the battery ground strap to remove all doubt.
Look hard at the battery and make sure both posts and terminal clamps are clean, shiny, and snug for a good connection. I coat all those with some Vaseline after they are proven good, to protect from stray acid fumes in the closed battery well. The battery itself has a vent port for fumes, and I route that outside the battery box to help with some corrosion issues in the cables and also in the box itself. Early cars have the battery box bolted to the transaxle to help with a resonant vibration, so inspect carefully to make sure that corrosion hasn't compromised the integrity of that box or its mountings.
If you do decide to replace the ignition switch, be sure to buy from a reputable vendor. The switch itself is the same one fitted to period 911 cars, making the market big enough to encourage cheap knock-off switches. I'll confess that I ended up with a new switch while chasing issues in my car, but the problem was not the switch. Mine is ten years newer than yours and the original switch is still working perfectly. The replacement switch is in a bin of good spares should I ever need it.
Hope this helps! Please share back what you find, and contribute to the knowledge base for future readers.
dr bob
1989 928 S4, black with cashmere/black inside
SoCal 928 Group Cofounder
928 Owner's Club Charter Member
Former Ex Bend Yacht Club Commodore Emeritus
Free Advice and Commentary. Use At Your Own Risk!
1989 928 S4, black with cashmere/black inside
SoCal 928 Group Cofounder
928 Owner's Club Charter Member
Former Ex Bend Yacht Club Commodore Emeritus
Free Advice and Commentary. Use At Your Own Risk!
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MrGreenJeans
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Holy cow thanks so much! I have a full day tomorrow to work through this. I’ll report back!
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Tom
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We need more 928 folks here! dr bob is a walking encyclopedia on those cars (or some modern AI equivalent thereof) so it's always good to see that knowledge go to good use. Tell your friends. 
Are you the same MrGreenJeans who was on RL --with answers to the 944 questions no one else had?
Are you the same MrGreenJeans who was on RL --with answers to the 944 questions no one else had?-
MrGreenJeans
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Update! I used a test light to check the jumper in the fuse panel. With the key to “start” it lit weakly the first try, weakly and I hear the fuel
Pump prime the second time and the 3rd time it lights up properly and the car starts.
This tracks with what’s been happening, which is that it takes 3 turns usually.
The jumper looked good, but I have a new spare for fuel pump emergencies so I used some deoxit on the panel contacts and tried it with the fresh jumper. Same thing.
Going to move to the ignition switch and see if anything looks amiss.
Pump prime the second time and the 3rd time it lights up properly and the car starts.
This tracks with what’s been happening, which is that it takes 3 turns usually.
The jumper looked good, but I have a new spare for fuel pump emergencies so I used some deoxit on the panel contacts and tried it with the fresh jumper. Same thing.
Going to move to the ignition switch and see if anything looks amiss.
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MrGreenJeans
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Not me but two owners ago - John Nitz. I have kept the name out of respect!Tom wrote: Mon Jul 07, 2025 6:34 pm We need more 928 folks here! dr bob is a walking encyclopedia on those cars (or some modern AI equivalent thereof) so it's always good to see that knowledge go to good use. Tell your friends.
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dr bob
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Tom is too generous. I do a LOT more troubleshooting on the cars than actual work. My 1989 car has only had a couple 'unplanned' repairs needed in the 25+ years I've had it. The original LH controller for injection was a known weakness, so I found a spare and had it updated. When mine started showing signs of imminent death, I swapped in the spare. Then had the original rebuilt and put it back in, kept the other one for field diagnostic rescues on others' cars. My fuel pump relay 'gave up' at the bottom of my driveway at our previous home above Los Angeles. We dragged the car back up the hill, and in a few minutes it was good as new with a new relay. Everything else on the car has been 'maintenance'.
The fuel pump relay in the '78 CIS car has the ignition pulse sensing circuitry built in, so it's worth keeping both the jumper (for diagnosis), and a full spare relay. There's no electronic controller for the CIS K-jet injection on the early 928 cars, so nothing there to keep as a spare. Still, a handful of Bosch 53b-style relays can easily bring joy back into an interrupted trip.
----
Sounds like you are on the correct path so far. You can do a little more verifying before you trouble the ignition switch. A fused (~~15A should be sufficient) in the 87 contact in that socket, jumpered to battery (the rail at the top with the incoming red wires...) should reliably crank the starter. If it doesn't, follow the downstream diagnostics. If the fuse blows, you may be looking at a short in the wiring harness. As our cars age and the wires in the engine bay get more crispy, the risk of insulation failure increases. Then it's a few sleepless nights worrying about what the wire shorted to.
Tangent: I keep a few jumper wires in the ride-along kit. One has a light bulb in series (good when chasing short circuits that are blowing fuses), a second with a fuse and a push-button starter switch for exactly the situation you are describing, and a third with a heavy-duty toggle switch and a fuse, specifically for the fuel pump. 12ga Wire for all of them. These, spare fuses, bubs and relays, plus a DMM, make up almost half of the 'extra tools' in the car these days. A small compressor substitutes for the factory units, a set of mini jumper cables plus a jump-start box, a combo screwdriver... I don't bother carrying tools for any roadside repair I'm not actually willing to do. But the little jumper wires are pretty handy for field diagnostics, and may be just enough to get home where there are better resources.
For the switch change, the gauge binnacle gets carefully loosened, wheel comes off, the cover comes off the steering wheel console with the switches, then the steering column gets unbolted but supported as you lower it for access to the switch. The connector and switch screws will be a LOT easier if you have a ratcheting angle screwdriver with IIRC #0 or #1 Phillips bits. Note he key and switch clocking as you remove the old one, match them before you screw the new one in.
There's not a lot of WYAIT for the switch replacement. Setting the depth for the horn contact is most easily performed with the DMM at the horn relay socket, measuring continuity as you adjust it with the horn button pressed. There's a bearing at the top of the column that might deserve replacement as PM, especially if the steering wheel rotation is at all noisy or grumpy. Order the bearing when you order the switch. Use care as you reset the turn signal switch in place, as the nylon release fingers are pretty fragile at this age. A bit of new grease there will extend their life some too.
A 'good' hack: There's a starter lockout relay in the socket where the jumper sits in the auto gearbox cars. Besides offering in-gear start protection, it also unloads the starter "50" contacts in the ignition switch. With a relay in place of the jumper, you can ground the open relay coil contact in the base as if the actual neutral safety switch were closed, and let the relay do all the heavy lifting when you wan tor run the starter motor.
And in general, the cars benefit a lot for cleaning all the ground points once in a while. A pretty impressive number of maladies and annoyances are magically solved when corroded ground points are restored.
The fuel pump relay in the '78 CIS car has the ignition pulse sensing circuitry built in, so it's worth keeping both the jumper (for diagnosis), and a full spare relay. There's no electronic controller for the CIS K-jet injection on the early 928 cars, so nothing there to keep as a spare. Still, a handful of Bosch 53b-style relays can easily bring joy back into an interrupted trip.
----
Sounds like you are on the correct path so far. You can do a little more verifying before you trouble the ignition switch. A fused (~~15A should be sufficient) in the 87 contact in that socket, jumpered to battery (the rail at the top with the incoming red wires...) should reliably crank the starter. If it doesn't, follow the downstream diagnostics. If the fuse blows, you may be looking at a short in the wiring harness. As our cars age and the wires in the engine bay get more crispy, the risk of insulation failure increases. Then it's a few sleepless nights worrying about what the wire shorted to.
Tangent: I keep a few jumper wires in the ride-along kit. One has a light bulb in series (good when chasing short circuits that are blowing fuses), a second with a fuse and a push-button starter switch for exactly the situation you are describing, and a third with a heavy-duty toggle switch and a fuse, specifically for the fuel pump. 12ga Wire for all of them. These, spare fuses, bubs and relays, plus a DMM, make up almost half of the 'extra tools' in the car these days. A small compressor substitutes for the factory units, a set of mini jumper cables plus a jump-start box, a combo screwdriver... I don't bother carrying tools for any roadside repair I'm not actually willing to do. But the little jumper wires are pretty handy for field diagnostics, and may be just enough to get home where there are better resources.
For the switch change, the gauge binnacle gets carefully loosened, wheel comes off, the cover comes off the steering wheel console with the switches, then the steering column gets unbolted but supported as you lower it for access to the switch. The connector and switch screws will be a LOT easier if you have a ratcheting angle screwdriver with IIRC #0 or #1 Phillips bits. Note he key and switch clocking as you remove the old one, match them before you screw the new one in.
There's not a lot of WYAIT for the switch replacement. Setting the depth for the horn contact is most easily performed with the DMM at the horn relay socket, measuring continuity as you adjust it with the horn button pressed. There's a bearing at the top of the column that might deserve replacement as PM, especially if the steering wheel rotation is at all noisy or grumpy. Order the bearing when you order the switch. Use care as you reset the turn signal switch in place, as the nylon release fingers are pretty fragile at this age. A bit of new grease there will extend their life some too.
A 'good' hack: There's a starter lockout relay in the socket where the jumper sits in the auto gearbox cars. Besides offering in-gear start protection, it also unloads the starter "50" contacts in the ignition switch. With a relay in place of the jumper, you can ground the open relay coil contact in the base as if the actual neutral safety switch were closed, and let the relay do all the heavy lifting when you wan tor run the starter motor.
And in general, the cars benefit a lot for cleaning all the ground points once in a while. A pretty impressive number of maladies and annoyances are magically solved when corroded ground points are restored.
dr bob
1989 928 S4, black with cashmere/black inside
SoCal 928 Group Cofounder
928 Owner's Club Charter Member
Former Ex Bend Yacht Club Commodore Emeritus
Free Advice and Commentary. Use At Your Own Risk!
1989 928 S4, black with cashmere/black inside
SoCal 928 Group Cofounder
928 Owner's Club Charter Member
Former Ex Bend Yacht Club Commodore Emeritus
Free Advice and Commentary. Use At Your Own Risk!
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MrGreenJeans
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Dr Bob. Your knowledge and willingness to share it is only surpassed by your humility! I have a replacement switch on the way from 928intl, but I wanted to share my latest finding which seems to also indicate the switch as the problem.
Just noticed the key itself gets hot even after a short drive.
Just noticed the key itself gets hot even after a short drive.
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dr bob
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From that 'key gets hot' symptom, we'd have to assume that it's from one of the other contacts in the switch. That would be the 15 circuit for 'engine run' or the X circuit for loads that are active in run position but get dropped out while cranking. The accessory circuit contacts also deserve attention especially if accessories have been added.
Later cars have included X-bus relays to manage those more serious loads like headlights, wipers, AC compressor and cabin blower, the single electric cooling fan in your case. The 15 circuit in your car runs the fuel pump and ignition relay coils IIRC, maybe more. Point is that age-related deterioration in those motors and such will add current through ignition switch contacts that might have been marginal when new. Plus any added loads that might be added on purpose. It might be interesting to do a little ammeter research and investigation in the fuses to see what's loading the switch contacts enough to cause the heating you describe.
The "ignition switch" includes the actual lock cylinder for the steering wheel, connected to the actual switch contact portion, and finally the harness connector that plugs into the back (forward in the car...) of the switch itself. The switch itself is pretty darn robust as the car was shipped, know good enough to support the same systems in 911 cars well before it was used in the 928 series. But the 928 has just a few more 'luxury' electrical accessories and loads vs. the 911 cars of the period.
You can connect the new switch to the harness connector, and start/run/etc stuff in the driveway with a small screwdriver to turn it. Then feel and probe for where heat is building. I don't have any actual load values for early car systems, so don't have baseline numbers against which to compare your findings, unfortunately.
I have a handy digital ammeter designed to plug into more modern AT* blade fuse sockets. For the early cars with the ceramic torpedo fuses, I plug the meter into an accessory fuse-holder with its own leads, and add alligator clips so I can connect to the end contacts for the ceramic fuses. The little ammeter will read up to 30A, so it's a bit safer than trying to use a common DMM with max 10A capability.
Maybe this testing would be a 'next step' if you find the new switch getting hot. Keep in mind that the heat is isolated to the switch section, so the warm you might feel at the key is a telltale of much more heat from the switch itself.
Fun detective work.
Later cars have included X-bus relays to manage those more serious loads like headlights, wipers, AC compressor and cabin blower, the single electric cooling fan in your case. The 15 circuit in your car runs the fuel pump and ignition relay coils IIRC, maybe more. Point is that age-related deterioration in those motors and such will add current through ignition switch contacts that might have been marginal when new. Plus any added loads that might be added on purpose. It might be interesting to do a little ammeter research and investigation in the fuses to see what's loading the switch contacts enough to cause the heating you describe.
The "ignition switch" includes the actual lock cylinder for the steering wheel, connected to the actual switch contact portion, and finally the harness connector that plugs into the back (forward in the car...) of the switch itself. The switch itself is pretty darn robust as the car was shipped, know good enough to support the same systems in 911 cars well before it was used in the 928 series. But the 928 has just a few more 'luxury' electrical accessories and loads vs. the 911 cars of the period.
You can connect the new switch to the harness connector, and start/run/etc stuff in the driveway with a small screwdriver to turn it. Then feel and probe for where heat is building. I don't have any actual load values for early car systems, so don't have baseline numbers against which to compare your findings, unfortunately.
I have a handy digital ammeter designed to plug into more modern AT* blade fuse sockets. For the early cars with the ceramic torpedo fuses, I plug the meter into an accessory fuse-holder with its own leads, and add alligator clips so I can connect to the end contacts for the ceramic fuses. The little ammeter will read up to 30A, so it's a bit safer than trying to use a common DMM with max 10A capability.
Maybe this testing would be a 'next step' if you find the new switch getting hot. Keep in mind that the heat is isolated to the switch section, so the warm you might feel at the key is a telltale of much more heat from the switch itself.
Fun detective work.
dr bob
1989 928 S4, black with cashmere/black inside
SoCal 928 Group Cofounder
928 Owner's Club Charter Member
Former Ex Bend Yacht Club Commodore Emeritus
Free Advice and Commentary. Use At Your Own Risk!
1989 928 S4, black with cashmere/black inside
SoCal 928 Group Cofounder
928 Owner's Club Charter Member
Former Ex Bend Yacht Club Commodore Emeritus
Free Advice and Commentary. Use At Your Own Risk!
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MrGreenJeans
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Dr Bob spot on about the switch heating up. Had a poor connection on the fuse for the aux fan, and it hasn’t it done it since I fixed that.
New switch arrives today. Dunno if this is a clue but it seems to only need the 3-5 turns to start when cold. If go for a drive and get back in to crank when still warm it cranks right away consistently.
New switch arrives today. Dunno if this is a clue but it seems to only need the 3-5 turns to start when cold. If go for a drive and get back in to crank when still warm it cranks right away consistently.