Porsche DE the Standard Bearer, but is it time for Time Trials!?

[WillyDaP]

Most of folks that I have run on a road course over the past 30+ years started with a PCA Region near them. Many of the drivers were not Porsche owners ( though I honestly believe the events converted quite a few ) but the Instruction and fun was open to all. The system has not changed much for Driver Education but with the advent of NASA, SCCA and programs like Gridlife, I wonder if PCA has been left behind and is missing the natural progression for their grassroot intro to automotive sports. As a PCA and NASA Instructor I feel it is time for PCA to view a new avenue for their owners who enjoy competition but do not want to run in their Amateur racing series. There are plenty of drivers who have wandered off to other groups so they can participate at a different level through Time Trials. This , many feel, is the natural ladder to go through from HPDE to W2W racing, but there is not area within PCA to do this. My idea is quite simple and has some built in safeguards to enable Insurance Costs to remain somewhat reasonable ( and in the same vein as SCCA or NASA ) while increasing participation at Club Racing Events and DE Events. Since I am throwing out this idea and it is just open for discussion at present, I will just make a brief outline for others to chime in. Basic structure listed below:

1. A Time Trial Competition can be held with any/all Club Racing or DE Events.
2. All Time Trial Drivers must have DE experience and go through a more rigorous Instructor approval to acquire an actual Competition license. There will need to be a Nationwide Structure for all Regions so drivers have a uniform license approval so they can run out of their Region.
3. The Time Trial will have Classes Structured only for Porsche Models and no other vehicles will be allowed to participate.
This has a two fold benefit in that there will be plenty of Porsche Classes, but the Club will not be trying to accommodate other makes, it will be Club only as with the Race Group. The second benefit is that should help with Insurance costs and give drivers a bit more confidence that all the other drivers are in Porsches and they have met the Competition License guidelines.
4. This addition to the DE and Club Racing activities will also help reduce track costs along with giving some members a stepping stone to get into Club Racing.
5. Initial Classing of vehicles may need to follow a HP to weight basis since there are only a few zillion Porsche models out there, ha.


I have plenty of other ideas with this but since I would like to hear other folk's views and comments, I will stop with just the few ideas above. With so many folks having to transition over to NASA, SCCA, Gridlife and more, it seems we need to work on a program ourselves , since the structure of the modern DE Experience was essentially birthed by the PCA.

Respectfully Submitted,
Bill Pemberton

[blueline]

Most of folks that I have run on a road course over the past 30+ years started with a PCA Region near them. Many of the drivers were not Porsche owners ( though I honestly believe the events converted quite a few ) but the Instruction and fun was open to all. The system has not changed much for Driver Education but with the advent of NASA, SCCA and programs like Gridlife, I wonder if PCA has been left behind and is missing the natural progression for their grassroot intro to automotive sports. As a PCA and NASA Instructor I feel it is time for PCA to view a new avenue for their owners who enjoy competition but do not want to run in their Amateur racing series. There are plenty of drivers who have wandered off to other groups so they can participate at a different level through Time Trials. This , many feel, is the natural ladder to go through from HPDE to W2W racing, but there is not area within PCA to do this. My idea is quite simple and has some built in safeguards to enable Insurance Costs to remain somewhat reasonable ( and in the same vein as SCCA or NASA ) while increasing participation at Club Racing Events and DE Events. Since I am throwing out this idea and it is just open for discussion at present, I will just make a brief outline for others to chime in. Basic structure listed below:

1. A Time Trial Competition can be held with any/all Club Racing or DE Events.
2. All Time Trial Drivers must have DE experience and go through a more rigorous Instructor approval to acquire an actual Competition license. There will need to be a Nationwide Structure for all Regions so drivers have a uniform license approval so they can run out of their Region.
3. The Time Trial will have Classes Structured only for Porsche Models and no other vehicles will be allowed to participate.
This has a two fold benefit in that there will be plenty of Porsche Classes, but the Club will not be trying to accommodate other makes, it will be Club only as with the Race Group. The second benefit is that should help with Insurance costs and give drivers a bit more confidence that all the other drivers are in Porsches and they have met the Competition License guidelines.
4. This addition to the DE and Club Racing activities will also help reduce track costs along with giving some members a stepping stone to get into Club Racing.
5. Initial Classing of vehicles may need to follow a HP to weight basis since there are only a few zillion Porsche models out there, ha.


I have plenty of other ideas with this but since I would like to hear other folk's views and comments, I will stop with just the few ideas above. With so many folks having to transition over to NASA, SCCA, Gridlife and more, it seems we need to work on a program ourselves , since the structure of the modern DE Experience was essentially birthed by the PCA.

Respectfully Submitted,
Bill Pemberton

Morning Bill,

Interesting thoughts that sound reasonable. If only the tight structure that defines PCA would be more flexible. They are quite rigid which has it's good points along with those that are a hindrance. I rarely attend PCA track events any more because the others offer fewer restrictions and more fun.

The big DE groups such as Chin along with NASA & SCCA and a host of other smaller regional event organizers (see my spreadsheets to get an idea of how many there are!) have done a better job of adapting to different needs and different interests from participants, so any advancement in that area from PCA would be good as I see it.

I think you hit the nail on the head with insurance. It's a huge and rigid national structure that I think controls what PCA can do. NCCC (Nat Council of Corvette Clubs) is very similar in that respect. They don't even do DE's - Auto-X only.

Good post!

By the way, I am moving your thread to the "Racing" sub as that is where all things regarding tracks and racing, going from basic beginner car control posts and instruction to F1 and everything in-between are best suited. I left a shadow copy in the "OK Corral" sub which will remain for a few days.

[WillyDaP]

Understand, I placed the thread here as it has a lot more activity in this sub forum, so was hoping we could get more input and discussion, but no problem.

The Insurance Issue is a stone that needs to be turned over, since PCA has a phenomenal record for safety and your involvement elsewhere is similar to mine and now is the time for PCA to become Pro-Active. They can use their long term safety record to shop around, and if they pursue an actual Competition License for Time Trial Drivers, that can also help with keeping costs down. From what I understand, Insurance costs are more of an issue now, not because of the lack of safety structures with DE's and Club Racing but because of the lack of participants. With so many , like you and I , going to NASA, SCCA, and Gridlife PCA controlled Time Trial Events could actually help with current and future costs. Too many are skipping the Innovator ( PCA ) and it is time for change. I would love to run on a track, at speed , with just a bunch of fellow Porschephiles , as the level of respect would be quite high in my estimation. Insurance costs can go down when more funds are applied through a growth in participation.

[blueline]

Understand, I placed the thread here as it has a lot more activity in this sub forum, so was hoping we could get more input and discussion, but no problem.

The Insurance Issue is a stone that needs to be turned over, since PCA has a phenomenal record for safety and your involvement elsewhere is similar to mine and now is the time for PCA to become Pro-Active. They can use their long term safety record to shop around, and if they pursue an actual Competition License for Time Trial Drivers, that can also help with keeping costs down. From what I understand, Insurance costs are more of an issue now, not because of the lack of safety structures with DE's and Club Racing but because of the lack of participants. With so many , like you and I , going to NASA, SCCA, and Gridlife PCA controlled Time Trial Events could actually help with current and future costs. Too many are skipping the Innovator ( PCA ) and it is time for change. I would love to run on a track, at speed , with just a bunch of fellow Porschephiles , as the level of respect would be quite high in my estimation. Insurance costs can go down when more funds are applied through a growth in participation.

It's interesting that the compete and learning level at Porsche's side of things (vs PCA) is so different. For example, at Porsche's dedicated track experience center at Barber Motorsports Park, Porsche offers courses in stages from beginner all the way to an intense 4-day Masters RSR Advanced Race License Course (at a cost of $12,400 for just that final 4-day course!), the completion of which qualifies as eligibility to apply for an SCCA Full Competition License.

https://www.porschedriving.com/track-experience/courses

I know a few of the instructors at the Barber school, two of whom are pro drivers and another who has been there from near the start. What they offer is quite different from the regular Porsche Experience Centers which are similar "just get on the track" experiences such as those offered by several other manufacturers (Corvette, Mercedes, Ford, etc.)

By the way, as far as sub-forums, one thing I do that might help other Carpokians see the gamut of different areas of interest on the website (assuming that is what they want), is to utilize both the "Recent Topics" sidebar at the right of the home page and also the link "Unread Posts" under the "Quick Links" drop-down on the far left header area. It's a gem that lets one quickly see what's been posted and what might have been missed.

The "Racing" sub was intended from the start to be the site for everything related to competition, amateur and pro racing, track days, car control, info on various tracks, AX, off-road, state of the sport, etc. - basically everything motorsport related. We wanted to keep the title simple so "Racing" was the logical choice even though the intent of the forum is to go beyond just pure "racing". It's a relatively new sub-forum started late February this year so it's still growing. Articles such as yours along with your generous replies and posts will help greatly in that respect!

'Unread posts' link screenshot 2023-08-29.png (147.33 KiB) Viewed 1641 times

[WillyDaP]

I do understand and I have been checking " Recent Topics " and I hope others are doing the same - quick and convenient. I will drop info on the upcoming SCCA Solo Nationals Championships at Lincoln , Nebraska ( unreal it is the 50th Anniversary ) in the racing section and hopefully when not competing I can get some shots of the Porsches competing. I may pop picture over to you, Blueline or Tom, as my posting skills from my phone out there are limited, ha.

[J-Dub]

Unread posts, absolute gem i was not using!

Regarding the main point of this topic, I am interested but not sure how to contribute in a meaningful way. Until just recently I ran with only non-PCA events because... I did not own a P-car. I did not realize how much it is true that they let you get out and run with no restrictions, no sign off etc and I thought that was how all groups did it. In my recent experience with the PCA, I did not even realize that a goal was to get a "sign off to go solo", I had not considered that would be needed. I assumed everyone got it after the first day until a guy in my first time with the PCA group did not get it.

Regarding time trials, club racing, the PCA here offered me that the minute I got signed off with the club to drive solo. Need to look more into that.

Interested in where this thread is going.

[WillyDaP]

Thanks for pointing out the unread posts, good extra info and like J-Dub noted , quite helpful.

[blueline]

Several groups in our area are trending towards more freedom and hands off as long as good behavior rules. This includes no-point-by passing anywhere on the track for the advanced groups. (Many drivers will still point by and also lift if necessary - courteous and safe.) Others, such as Chin, also have passing anywhere and everywhere but with a very strict stipulation of an immediate, mandatory point-by no matter where. It's fun and drivers can learn a lot. This works because of the friendly and even-keeled people in our sport - it's pretty awesome.

As for time trials and more, NASA does well of course along with SCCA but I think a lot of us have been doing our own versions of solo time trials during our track days for many years. We have good data acquisition, keep logs, and compete against ourselves.

[WillyDaP]

My concern with groups opening up the no point by passing is the fact that both NASA and SCCA require a Competition License for Time Trials , which is what opens up the freedom to pass anywhere. Instructing for almost 25 years and helping sponsor a couple of Track Events for 15 years the problem I see is you are often on a road course with various percentages of drivers brand new and even with those experienced a new situation where a driver might go flying by them opens a concern of those who are surprised by a sudden situation of a fast car going by and them not being aware. I hope most groups will require some type of skill level or teach awareness of free passing with maybe something similar to a Competition License for NASA or SCCA, maybe a license showing Advanced Driver. This would allow passing in the group only as well as showing some level of competence. I think it would even help those drivers who are experienced knowing the drivers out there with them were at a similar level, because it is very rare you know all the Trackrats out scurrying around a course with you. Just my humble opinion. Now off to go watch some Aged Autocross Coneheads over in Lincoln ,Nebraska for the CAM Challenge and the Pro Solo Nationals.

[blueline]

My concern with groups opening up the no point by passing is the fact that both NASA and SCCA require a Competition License for Time Trials , which is what opens up the freedom to pass anywhere. Instructing for almost 25 years and helping sponsor a couple of Track Events for 15 years the problem I see is you are often on a road course with various percentages of drivers brand new and even with those experienced a new situation where a driver might go flying by them opens a concern of those who are surprised by a sudden situation of a fast car going by and them not being aware. I hope most groups will require some type of skill level or teach awareness of free passing with maybe something similar to a Competition License for NASA or SCCA, maybe a license showing Advanced Driver. This would allow passing in the group only as well as showing some level of competence. I think it would even help those drivers who are experienced knowing the drivers out there with them were at a similar level, because it is very rare you know all the Trackrats out scurrying around a course with you. Just my humble opinion. Now off to go watch some Aged Autocross Coneheads over in Lincoln ,Nebraska for the CAM Challenge and the Pro Solo Nationals.

It works fine. As I mentioned, it's for Advanced Groups only. The attendees of those events and others such as David Murry's completely open track events (geared to pros) are often part of NASA, SCCA, PCA Club racers and/or are pro or semi-pro drivers. Many have competed in sanctioned sprints or Enduros such those in ChampCar or WRL. The rest are seasoned enough as advanced drivers to never cause problems with the no-point-by or open track formats. The criteria to be in any advanced top-level group is pretty strict around here.