Kroon Harness for 944 Turbo

[Latitude48]

I have no idea why the engineers decided to use slotted screws. I replaced them with 2.5mm allen screws. Made it MUCH easier to reinstall and will be easier to remove again in the future (in 30 years or so.....).

It's not fun, but you'll get it out.

It sounds like you might have used button head cap screws if they took a 2.5mm allen wrench? I picked up a couple of M4x8 12.9 grade cap screws from Home Depot and they use a 3mm allen wrench. Google Gemini said 3mm was standard but some button head might use 2.5. The cap screws don't have quite as much shoulder area as the slotted screws, but I do think they maybe easier to install.

[NCGermerican]

I have no idea why the engineers decided to use slotted screws. I replaced them with 2.5mm allen screws. Made it MUCH easier to reinstall and will be easier to remove again in the future (in 30 years or so.....).

It's not fun, but you'll get it out.

It sounds like you might have used button head cap screws if they took a 2.5mm allen wrench? I picked up a couple of M4x8 12.9 grade cap screws from Home Depot and they use a 3mm allen wrench. Google Gemini said 3mm was standard but some button head might use 2.5. The cap screws don't have quite as much shoulder area as the slotted screws, but I do think they maybe easier to install.

Yes that's correct - they use a 2.5mm allen wrench - the screws themselves are M4. I wasn't super clear on my post. 2.5MM should be fine as they are barely torqued at all. Basically finger tight+1 even from the factory.

[VA_951]

Hey NCG,
I've been following your videos and posts, and I definitely feel your pain. My setup is almost identical to yours, and I'm seeing the same AFR behavior at idle. Vacuum doesn't seem to be an issue, I average around 18 -Hg at idle. The only major difference is that I'm running a Raptor S (K26/6) instead of the Raptor X.

The other thing we have in common is old fuel, and after reading what chrischrischris shared, I'm starting to wonder if I've been chasing my tail too.

First off, thanks for documenting all of your testing, it saved me a lot of time. I've gone through many of the same checks and haven't found anything obvious. I smoke-tested and pressure-tested the intake with no leaks. I did, however, track down a condensation issue. Every time I started the car, it would leave a small puddle of water underneath. It turned out the water was coming from the downpipe flange on the exhaust side. The flange bolts simply needed to be re-torqued. After fixing that, I noticed a slight improvement in my AFR readings. My wideband O2 sensor is located just downstream of that connection, so I'm assuming the small exhaust leak was affecting the readings. I also have the same two-piece Lindsey Racing crossover pipe and plan to smoke-test it as well, just to be safe.

The reason I'm leaning (no pun intended) toward old fuel being the culprit is that my car has barely been driven over the last three years while I've been restoring it (I'll share more about that in another thread). When I recently filled it up, the tank was about half full of fuel that was at least a year old; possibly older. Looking back, I should have drained the tank instead of adding fuel stabilizer and topping it off with fresh gas. Unfortunately, I now have a full tank of this lovely fuel cocktail...Grrr!

For some additional background, I had my injectors cleaned and flow-tested before the car sat. It ran great afterward, but then it sat for about 11 months. When I finally started it again, it felt like it wasn't firing on all cylinders. After checking everything over, I noticed it was running extremely lean (16-18 AFR). I pulled the injectors, had them checked and found they had all gone bad. Once I had them refurbished and reinstalled, the AFR came back to where it should be (around 14.7). The car still has a slightly rough idle, and the AFR oscillates between about 14.7 and 15.1 at idle, but it averages right around 14.7 while cruising.

951 injectors_take two.png (76.1 KiB) Viewed 60 times

Based on the new information about the gas, I'm beginning to think my old fuel mixture is the remaining culprit, and it may very well be the same issue you're dealing with. The more I read through the GPT information, the more they seem to line up with what I'm seeing. In fact, every case describing the effects of old fuel closely matches the symptoms my car has been exhibiting, from the rough idle and fluctuating AFRs to the way it runs fine once cruising. At this point, old fuel seems like the most logical explanation.

I really don't want to drain a full tank of gas, so I think I'm just going to take it on a long drive and burn through it. I'll keep the boost under 5 psi just to be safe and see if the symptoms improve after adding fresh gas.
Looking forward to your next update. Fingers crossed we're both chasing the same simple problem.

On a related note, I also want to check the MAP plug that is supposed to be shorted on the F9 DME with OBD+. I wasn't aware of that requirement, and I'm wondering if it could also be contributing to my rough idle.

Can anyone explain exactly what needs to be done or point me to an existing thread that covers it? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

[NCGermerican]

Hey NCG,
I've been following your videos and posts, and I definitely feel your pain. My setup is almost identical to yours, and I'm seeing the same AFR behavior at idle. Vacuum doesn't seem to be an issue, I average around 18 -Hg at idle. The only major difference is that I'm running a Raptor S (K26/6) instead of the Raptor X.

The other thing we have in common is old fuel, and after reading what chrischrischris shared, I'm starting to wonder if I've been chasing my tail too.......

Hey VA! I appreciate your post. Not that I enjoy hearing about the misfortune of others, but it helps to know when other's are experiencing some of the same issues.

My next course of action is to drain the gas....which is about the least enjoyable thing I can think of doing, but I think it will be worth it. If new gas doesn't do the trick, it's back to the factory injectors, AFM and LR MAXX chip to see what happens. Believe it or not, I'm also considering going to the Raptor S, despite Charlie aggressively trying to talk me out of it. While there's no doubt the larger inlet of the X adds more power, I just don't have the confidence of the aftermarket J-boot to keep out unmetered air. There's just not enough room with a factory size alternator and I don't trust the Nissan Quest hack to line up correctly - too many horror stories about misalignment of the pulley.

There's nothing worse than not having confidence in aftermarket parts. No matter how many smoke tests and boost leak tests I perform, I'm always going to be thinking "is this part going to fail". There's something to be said about how well factory parts fit.

[Mscromer]

On a related note, I also want to check the MAP plug that is supposed to be shorted on the F9 DME with OBD+. I wasn't aware of that requirement, and I'm wondering if it could also be contributing to my rough idle.

Can anyone explain exactly what needs to be done or point me to an existing thread that covers it? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

I’m the one that was having rough idle issues and with @Tom help me figured out that I had the F9 DME with some kind of known quirk. I also emailed F9 to see if Joe knew if my DME was affected. This was his email response

“Yes, it turns out that ADV 28 is a special function analog input and must be grounded for proper ICV operation. You can use the provided 4pin pigtail and short the black and orange wires together. Or I can send you a special plug that does the same thing.”

I just wish if this is a known issue that F9 knows about what don’t they tell everyone from the beginning to short out that map plug pigtail. Not that this is what’s causing yours and @NCGermerican issues but it could be a small part of it. Once I shorted out the pigtail my car immediately idled great. With the key in the on position I could now hear the ICV buzzing that I couldn’t hear anything before. Hope this might be part of y’all’s problems.

[NCGermerican]

On a related note, I also want to check the MAP plug that is supposed to be shorted on the F9 DME with OBD+. I wasn't aware of that requirement, and I'm wondering if it could also be contributing to my rough idle.

Can anyone explain exactly what needs to be done or point me to an existing thread that covers it? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

I’m the one that was having rough idle issues and with @Tom help me figured out that I had the F9 DME with some kind of known quirk. I also emailed F9 to see if Joe knew if my DME was affected. This was his email response

“Yes, it turns out that ADV 28 is a special function analog input and must be grounded for proper ICV operation. You can use the provided 4pin pigtail and short the black and orange wires together. Or I can send you a special plug that does the same thing.”

I just wish if this is a known issue that F9 knows about what don’t they tell everyone from the beginning to short out that map plug pigtail. Not that this is what’s causing yours and @NCGermerican issues but it could be a small part of it. Once I shorted out the pigtail my car immediately idled great. With the key in the on position I could now hear the ICV buzzing that I couldn’t hear anything before. Hope this might be part of y’all’s problems.

Holy crap. This part sparked my interest:

ADV 28 is a special function analog input and must be grounded for proper ICV operation

One of the issues I've been dealing with is my ICV is at 93% open at idle. I've been attributing it to either a vacuum leak or poor combustion. I've even tried to jumper the ICV but the ODB+ software still shows it at 85-90% open. Holy moly......

My only problem is my [unused] MAP pigtail only has 3 wires (red/black/orange).

I've emailed Joe to see what he says.

@Tom Let's just say that, hypothetically, everything is working as intended on a car, EXCEPT for the fact the ICV is open way more than it should be. What would be the expected issues?

[Mscromer]

On a related note, I also want to check the MAP plug that is supposed to be shorted on the F9 DME with OBD+. I wasn't aware of that requirement, and I'm wondering if it could also be contributing to my rough idle.

Can anyone explain exactly what needs to be done or point me to an existing thread that covers it? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

I’m the one that was having rough idle issues and with @Tom help me figured out that I had the F9 DME with some kind of known quirk. I also emailed F9 to see if Joe knew if my DME was affected. This was his email response

“Yes, it turns out that ADV 28 is a special function analog input and must be grounded for proper ICV operation. You can use the provided 4pin pigtail and short the black and orange wires together. Or I can send you a special plug that does the same thing.”

I just wish if this is a known issue that F9 knows about what don’t they tell everyone from the beginning to short out that map plug pigtail. Not that this is what’s causing yours and @NCGermerican issues but it could be a small part of it. Once I shorted out the pigtail my car immediately idled great. With the key in the on position I could now hear the ICV buzzing that I couldn’t hear anything before. Hope this might be part of y’all’s problems.

Holy crap. This part sparked my interest:

ADV 28 is a special function analog input and must be grounded for proper ICV operation

One of the issues I've been dealing with is my ICV is at 93% open at idle. I've been attributing it to either a vacuum leak or poor combustion. I've even tried to jumper the ICV but the ODB+ software still shows it at 85-90% open. Holy moly......

My only problem is my [unused] MAP pigtail only has 3 wires (red/black/orange).

I've emailed Joe to see what he says.

@Tom Let's just say that, hypothetically, everything is working as intended on a car, EXCEPT for the fact the ICV is open way more than it should be. What would be the expected issues?

Solder the black and orange wire together. You can just cap off the red wire. Or Joe At F9 will send you one already done. I hope this could be some or all of your problem but does sound like you have some old gas not helping the issue.

[VA_951]

On a related note, I also want to check the MAP plug that is supposed to be shorted on the F9 DME with OBD+. I wasn't aware of that requirement, and I'm wondering if it could also be contributing to my rough idle.

Can anyone explain exactly what needs to be done or point me to an existing thread that covers it? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

I’m the one that was having rough idle issues and with @Tom help me figured out that I had the F9 DME with some kind of known quirk. I also emailed F9 to see if Joe knew if my DME was affected. This was his email response

“Yes, it turns out that ADV 28 is a special function analog input and must be grounded for proper ICV operation. You can use the provided 4pin pigtail and short the black and orange wires together. Or I can send you a special plug that does the same thing.”

I just wish if this is a known issue that F9 knows about what don’t they tell everyone from the beginning to short out that map plug pigtail. Not that this is what’s causing yours and @NCGermerican issues but it could be a small part of it. Once I shorted out the pigtail my car immediately idled great. With the key in the on position I could now hear the ICV buzzing that I couldn’t hear anything before. Hope this might be part of y’all’s problems.

Thanks Mscromer. Sounds fairly simple. I just need to find that pigtail, if not i'll solder something up.
I agree, surprised Joe did not mention anything about this or post on his site. Thanks again!

[VA_951]

Hey NCG,
I've been following your videos and posts, and I definitely feel your pain. My setup is almost identical to yours, and I'm seeing the same AFR behavior at idle. Vacuum doesn't seem to be an issue, I average around 18 -Hg at idle. The only major difference is that I'm running a Raptor S (K26/6) instead of the Raptor X.

The other thing we have in common is old fuel, and after reading what chrischrischris shared, I'm starting to wonder if I've been chasing my tail too.......

My next course of action is to drain the gas....which is about the least enjoyable thing I can think of doing, but I think it will be worth it. If new gas doesn't do the trick, it's back to the factory injectors, AFM and LR MAXX chip to see what happens. Believe it or not, I'm also considering going to the Raptor S, despite Charlie aggressively trying to talk me out of it. While there's no doubt the larger inlet of the X adds more power, I just don't have the confidence of the aftermarket J-boot to keep out unmetered air. There's just not enough room with a factory size alternator and I don't trust the Nissan Quest hack to line up correctly - too many horror stories about misalignment of the pulley.

There's nothing worse than not having confidence in aftermarket parts. No matter how many smoke tests and boost leak tests I perform, I'm always going to be thinking "is this part going to fail". There's something to be said about how well factory parts fit.

Yeah, I got tired of chasing HP and changed gears on this last build. Wanted to focus on reliability and get it to pass CA emissions, so I pulled off most of the aftermarket bits.

[Tom]

I don't trust the F9 log re the idle stabilizer. At least on mine, it seems to read backwards -- i.e., when it says 90% open, it's really 90% closed. I've flagged that before here on CP, and pinged Joe about it, but never got a response. I'll see if I can do a little testing this week to prove or disprove that.

But to your question, if you had a vacuum leak, you would expect the ISV to close more to keep the idle at its commanded rpm...

The map sensor thing with the F9 DME is real and we documented it in detail in the chip tuning guide, but it's a super subtle issue though. On a stock chip, the result is an idle set to 800 rpms rather 840, which makes for slower/weaker idle but otherwise no real issues. Like I said, it went unnoticed to the world, including Joe, until we went on a quest to control idle rpms in the maps and realized this quirk sent the code to a vestigial idle map set to 800.